Ashley Morrison's Blog

August 28, 2014

Classic

Interesting request in last week from a PR agency in England, who was looking for someone to produce some images for them to use to help them promote their client, who it seems “makes very high quality doors for houses”… according to them.

Not sure how they came across my name, as they also asked to see my portfolio / website – but anyway, after sending them a link to it, I realised they probably wouldn’t see that many images on our website of just doors – which I assume is that they would want to see – so I quickly dug-out a few actually ‘door type images’ that I had on file, like this one…
Enterence hallway door
.. and this one…
Enterence hallway door
.. which I explained to them in an email, were images which were produced along with a set of other images those days, for mainly ‘editorial use’ in various home interior type magazines – both nationally as well as locally.

Which was basically the same market that they were hoping to target here too, with these images which they were asking me to produce and then provide them with for them and their client to use.

Also sent them this image…
Door by Hayburn Wood Products
.. which was produced almost 10 years ago, and is still being used by Hayburn Wood Products to promote the fact that they also produced beautiful doors too – to show a slightly different style, which is more ‘advertising’ like – being puncher, cleaner and eye catching – due to a number of factors.

So in other words, I wanted them to see that even something as simple as ‘an image of a door’, could be made to look very different – which it may need to here, to appeal to her target market and get them the desired results.
Which is at the end of the day, is what it’s all about. i.e. me helping them get results.

So anyway, that all when down well and they loved what they saw – so then came the big question: How much?

Well as always, the answer is “it depends” – as there are more than 100 different ways to shoot any subject.
And so the questions at my end often are: “How good do the images need to be ?” and “How much are you prepare to spend ?”.
However, I know there is no point in actually asking a client those questions, because I already know what they would say if I did, which would be: “We want them to look amazing but we don’t want to pay very much.” wink

So instead, I ask them what did they need to use the image for, as that will then help me to determine not only what they may be worth to them but also what I may have to do to ensure I get it right for them.

And in this case, they said they where needing them for PR use, as they would be sending them to the various home interest magazines (like the ones we would often submit our work to) for them to use in the “How to get the look” section – which you would often see at the end of a feature, etc.
Period of use – well forever naturally, especially if it doesn’t cost anymore – and the Territory of use would be Worldwide, especially if it didn’t cost anymore.
But it does – because producing an image which someone would actually want to use more, usually means it will need to be better and more timeless looking – which again I need to take into account – as well as, who their target market is, i.e. local people, national people or even international people – as what the style may need to be, to appeal to each of those could be very different.

So anyway, with this information on hand, I sent them through this quote…
Quote-00016856
.. to get the ball rolling here – as this is what I reckoned the minimum would need to be – both in terms of what I’d need to charge to cover my basic production costs; as well as, what they would actually be needing to use these images for too.

Which is based on what I would consider to be ‘Standard use’ – that is, for me to produce and then provide them with a number of images here, that would be good enough for them to want to use in this one media for at least the next two years in throughout the UK & Ireland.

To which they relied:

“Hi happy with that but we don’t want a restriction on use.
Please can you look at that and take that off and re-send the invoice?
Thanks so much”

Classic, I thought rolleyes

So now instead of me producing some images that she may want to use for more than 2 years PR use, she now wants what exactly ?

For me to produce some image here that she would want to use for in multiple media for the next 10+ years throughout the world, which would obviously cost a hell of a lot more OR for me to just take some quick pictures here that she could use if she wanted to… and stay within that budget ??

As it’s obviously the budget here, that will ultimately determine what I can or can not afford to do – which in turn will then determine how much she will actually want to use the images for afterwards.

So that could be like the difference between me providing her with something like this…
Preview use only
.. or this…
One time only editorial use
.. or even this…
Multiple media use for 10+ years
.. depending on how money I had to play with.

So, since I know I can take some quick shots for her – should she not want to spend much money – and I also know I can produce some images which she may want to use a bit more or even use a lot more (if I really ‘go for it’ and bring in a team to help me) – then what are we talking about here now !!

Or let me put it another way, for £510, for me to produce and then provide you with 4 images for you to use – which of the above 3 images do you think you would be getting from me at the end of the day, for you to use for whatever you liked ?
(keeping in mind that there is at least 2 or 3 hours travelling involved here too).

In other words, what would your exceptions be here ? – because I sure wouldn’t like to disappoint you and get this wrong !!

Now obviously if what they were simply just asking me to do here, was to take some pictures – and it was all sitting-up camera ready, and perfect to shoot – then no problems at all. However, after looking at the recce image that they sent me of what the door actually looked like ‘as is’ – it was very obviously to both of us, that for me to create some images here that they would actually want to use a lot, then a lot was going to be needed to be done. Otherwise, they would just end-up with some images which they could use a lot, but probably won’t want to use very much.

So the question for me is: What do they want me to produce and then provide them with here ? – and: How much would they be willing to pay for that ?

Well if they are only prepared to pay £510 and where wanting to use the images as much as they like, then obviously I’d need to say within my budget and keep my costs down to a minimum – especially if I was wanting to maximise my profits.
So naturally I’m not going to want to do anything more than I would absolutely need to – because this for me, is all about making as much money as possible at the end of the day – as opposed to me wanting some really great images here, because I personally needed to use them for something.

So really, the only reason why I’d want to go the extra mile here and produce some amazing images, is if either:
(a) I needed to use them for something.
OR
(b) If I felt that would increase the value of them, i.e. the amount that others would be prepared to pay me for the use of them – because then there would be a real incentive in place.

But obviously if you remove that incentive, by saying something like: it’s a fixed fee for unlimited use, then trying to produce better images that others would want to use a lot more, all becomes very counter productive – as this is like saying: it doesn’t really matter how good they are any more.

That’s obviously not really a great way to work, especially for a creative person, who will naturally always want to their best – but since I’m a ‘professional’ photographer (who is a person who takes photographs to make money, rather than an amateur, who may take photographs for pleasure and to record an event, emotion, place, without a monetary motivation) – then taking photographs to make money means, that the money side of things needs to come first – otherwise, what I’d be doing, would really be no difference to what an ‘amateur’ would do.

So the question for me is: If you want me to provide you with more, how much more are you willing to pay ?

Which in this cased turned-out to be a lot more, for the same amount of money that I had quoted here.

Sorry, but that doesn’t work for me – and so that was basically the end of it – as there is simply no way I’m going to provide something that is possibly worth thousands of pounds, for just a few hundred.

So would love to hear from others here, as to how you go about handling requests like this – whereby a client specifically asks you to give them a price for one thing, but then says they want you to provide them with something totally different afterwards… for the same price.

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6 Comments »

  1. Thank you for sharing. Also wondering how you suggest pricing for editorial images?

    Comment by arun sarin — August 31, 2014 @ 6:57 am | Reply

    • The usage for ‘editorial use’ is fixed or known – and as that is usually for less than ‘standard use’ of my work, then it would normally be a discounted rate or my BUR-% rate, that I’d be looking at here.

      The variable would obviously be the Territory of use i.e. local, national or international.

      Comment by Ashley Morrison — August 31, 2014 @ 7:54 am | Reply

  2. This kind of thing happens to all of us who use rights managed licensing. The typical explanation from such clients is that they don’t really need a perpetual license for worldwide use in all media, but they don’t want to have to keep track of usage, and that there are others who will give them these unlimited rights for the same quality photos, for the same fee you would charge for limited rights. Most often, it seems to me that this type of client is, after all, not really that committed to using the best quality photos they can get for their money, and that merely adequate, “good enough”, photos will do, not as good as the best you can offer, but better than you will offer to meet their terms and budget.

    In response to your question, my question is how, if at all, do you overcome the objection that a limited-rights license is inconvenient or impractical? Or, alternatively, how do you qualify this kind of non-prospect as quickly as possible, to avoid wasting time on them?

    Comment by David Eichler — August 28, 2014 @ 5:58 pm | Reply

    • I would often send a few different quotes beforehand, David – so as to let them see what the difference would be in cost.

      So in this case, I also sent them a 2nd quote to let them see what the fee would be for me to produce and then provide them with some images, (that would be good enough for them to want to use) for 4 years PR use throughout Europe – as they did originally mention about possibly wanting to use the images for quite a while, as well as in various countries throughout Europe too.

      And then after their reply here to my 1st quote which you can see above, I then sent them a 3rd quote to let them see what the fee would be for me to produce and then provide them with some images, (that would be good enough for them to want to use) for 10+ years in all media throughout the world.

      Thereby giving them 3 options.

      The other option of course, is that I could produce and then provide them with some images for £510, that they could then use as much as they wanted to. But as I have said here, that would then obviously mean, I would be looking at keeping my production costs down to a minimum – and so yes, I could guarantee them that – which they naturally didn’t like the sound off 🙂

      Because as I’ve said many times before – there are more than 100 different ways to shot any subject – and so that’s what they needed to understand here, i.e. I can very easily limit the amount they would actually want to use images too, if that’s what they would prefer I do.

      So it’s up to them, what do they want me to provide them with here: images that they can use or images that they will want to use ?

      Either way, I need to know beforehand – which is why I quote – as the difference here, in both cost and what they will get at the end of the day, could be huge.

      Comment by Ashley Morrison — August 29, 2014 @ 6:58 am | Reply

  3. I’m in a somewhat similar situation right now. A client who sells construction material for residential/commercial use asked to buy photos I already shot showing the finished home/building using this material. I gave them a group of shots and they chose 22 images they’d like to use for print materials, website and ads in magazines. Just about to quote pricing similar to your pricing, but in US$…we’ll see how it goes and I’ll let you know.

    Comment by Amy Dolego — August 28, 2014 @ 4:23 pm | Reply

    • Besides the number of images they want to use and the Media use, Amy – which you already know here – the other 2 main things which one would normally take into account when negotiating the fee, are the Period of use & Territory of use.
      So 1 years use in those Media would be less than 10+ years use, for example – and/or 1 state of America would be less than the whole of America, type of thing.

      Which should all be straight forward enough for you to work, now that the images actually do exist – as this client can now see exactly what they will get for his money.

      Comment by Ashley Morrison — August 28, 2014 @ 5:41 pm | Reply


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